Comments on: Mysticism and sexuality http://frimmin.com/2007/08/14/mysticism-and-sexuality/ spiritual awakening and enlightenment in today's world Mon, 24 Oct 2011 16:08:55 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Jon http://frimmin.com/2007/08/14/mysticism-and-sexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-41812 Jon Thu, 21 Jul 2011 14:09:48 +0000 http://frimmin.com/2007/08/14/mysticism-and-sexuality/#comment-41812 Thanks, for sharing, Kay. I fully agree, and you make some great points. Too much analysis of the mystics comes from the modern mind instead of knowing mystical experience itself. I cringe whenever I hear someone's supposed "insight" that St. Teresa's angelic experience as something to do with repressed sexuality, etc. There is much to be said for abstinence, continence, discipline, faithfulness... taming and controlling the passions. It does go both ways though. After decades of abstinence, at this point of my life, I feel I'm being drawn to a more "tantric" path of savoring the pleasures and challenges of initimacy. As the Preacher said in Ecclesiastes, "to everything, there is a season." Thanks, for sharing, Kay. I fully agree, and you make some great points. Too much analysis of the mystics comes from the modern mind instead of knowing mystical experience itself. I cringe whenever I hear someone’s supposed “insight” that St. Teresa’s angelic experience as something to do with repressed sexuality, etc.

There is much to be said for abstinence, continence, discipline, faithfulness… taming and controlling the passions. It does go both ways though. After decades of abstinence, at this point of my life, I feel I’m being drawn to a more “tantric” path of savoring the pleasures and challenges of initimacy. As the Preacher said in Ecclesiastes, “to everything, there is a season.”

]]> By: Kay http://frimmin.com/2007/08/14/mysticism-and-sexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-41654 Kay Sun, 17 Jul 2011 22:17:50 +0000 http://frimmin.com/2007/08/14/mysticism-and-sexuality/#comment-41654 Although I greatly enjoy the sexual union, when I gave my life to Christ He led me to Himself by way of a celibate road...for 16 years now I have abstained from sexual union with a man...my desire has not dwindelled, rather my sense of the sacredness of sex has greatly increased. Being discipled in a protestant church, neither I, nor they knew what to think of my celibacy...nevertheless, the strong call to total donation of myself to Christ was there for all to see.....then I found it...the missing peice...I came across the Theology of the Body by John Paul II...all of my questions were anwered and I now knew why all the self denial...I began to see what the mystics have seen...sex is a foretaste of the blissfull union Christ will have with His bride in heaven...sex is a "sign" of the mystical union and mystics see the cross as the marriage bed where Christ gave his naked body for His bride. I still desire sex on a human scale but also feel that I have begun to see that sexual desire is often a deeper longing for union with God. And although that relationship is not physically sexual, it does carry a most heavy weith of romance and desire and is fulfilling in a deeply spiritual way. I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read Christoper West's writings on the pope's Theology of the Body teachings...it is hard to understand someone who is mystical until you have walked some of the pathways they have taken...then things tend to become clearer and we are less likely to judge them as merely "repressed" ect. I look forward to earthly sexual union again...however, I now know that it means much more than I once thought it did:) Although I greatly enjoy the sexual union, when I gave my life to Christ He led me to Himself by way of a celibate road…for 16 years now I have abstained from sexual union with a man…my desire has not dwindelled, rather my sense of the sacredness of sex has greatly increased. Being discipled in a protestant church, neither I, nor they knew what to think of my celibacy…nevertheless, the strong call to total donation of myself to Christ was there for all to see…..then I found it…the missing peice…I came across the Theology of the Body by John Paul II…all of my questions were anwered and I now knew why all the self denial…I began to see what the mystics have seen…sex is a foretaste of the blissfull union Christ will have with His bride in heaven…sex is a “sign” of the mystical union and mystics see the cross as the marriage bed where Christ gave his naked body for His bride. I still desire sex on a human scale but also feel that I have begun to see that sexual desire is often a deeper longing for union with God. And although that relationship is not physically sexual, it does carry a most heavy weith of romance and desire and is fulfilling in a deeply spiritual way. I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read Christoper West’s writings on the pope’s Theology of the Body teachings…it is hard to understand someone who is mystical until you have walked some of the pathways they have taken…then things tend to become clearer and we are less likely to judge them as merely “repressed” ect. I look forward to earthly sexual union again…however, I now know that it means much more than I once thought it did:)

]]> By: Jon http://frimmin.com/2007/08/14/mysticism-and-sexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-24311 Jon Sat, 19 Sep 2009 21:07:22 +0000 http://frimmin.com/2007/08/14/mysticism-and-sexuality/#comment-24311 Of course! Of course!

]]> By: Paul http://frimmin.com/2007/08/14/mysticism-and-sexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-24242 Paul Thu, 17 Sep 2009 05:19:19 +0000 http://frimmin.com/2007/08/14/mysticism-and-sexuality/#comment-24242 What about same-sex sex? Can it be just as spiritual? What about same-sex sex? Can it be just as spiritual?

]]> By: Alexandros http://frimmin.com/2007/08/14/mysticism-and-sexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-16902 Alexandros Fri, 23 May 2008 02:30:43 +0000 http://frimmin.com/2007/08/14/mysticism-and-sexuality/#comment-16902 Whether we accept life completly or not, Sex "IS" Spiritual. All is God, first seek that understanding and the natures of sexuality will be revealed - no need for waffling or speculation :) Whether we accept life completly or not, Sex “IS” Spiritual. All is God, first seek that understanding and the natures of sexuality will be revealed – no need for waffling or speculation :)

]]> By: Oui http://frimmin.com/2007/08/14/mysticism-and-sexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-16630 Oui Tue, 29 Apr 2008 04:03:54 +0000 http://frimmin.com/2007/08/14/mysticism-and-sexuality/#comment-16630 The practice of sex has changed considerably since the ancient authors advocated celibacy. When I think about it, sex itself may not have been the real root of distraction. Perhaps the children produced by sex were, nearly 2000 years ago, way too much distraction for anyone, man or woman, to be able to devote very much time to personal spiritual development. Lifespans were far shorter than today, so raising healthy children would have been (and still is) a top priority. There was no reliable birth control, so experimenting/exploring sex was more than difficult. Celibacy was a logical option, at the time. Now, with birth control or sterilization, sex can be freely enjoyed/explored on a widespread spiritual basis like never before. This is the first time in 10,000 years that spiritual sex can be practiced. Granted, the practitioners of tantra have been doing it for a long time, but I don't think it was ever extremely widespread. Spiritual sex with my partner has deeply enriched my overall spiritual life and introduced mysticism. I think now is the time to explore this overlooked aspect of spiritual experience. The practice of sex has changed considerably since the ancient authors advocated celibacy. When I think about it, sex itself may not have been the real root of distraction. Perhaps the children produced by sex were, nearly 2000 years ago, way too much distraction for anyone, man or woman, to be able to devote very much time to personal spiritual development.

Lifespans were far shorter than today, so raising healthy children would have been (and still is) a top priority. There was no reliable birth control, so experimenting/exploring sex was more than difficult.

Celibacy was a logical option, at the time. Now, with birth control or sterilization, sex can be freely enjoyed/explored on a widespread spiritual basis like never before.

This is the first time in 10,000 years that spiritual sex can be practiced. Granted, the practitioners of tantra have been doing it for a long time, but I don’t think it was ever extremely widespread.

Spiritual sex with my partner has deeply enriched my overall spiritual life and introduced mysticism.

I think now is the time to explore this overlooked aspect of spiritual experience.

]]> By: Tracie http://frimmin.com/2007/08/14/mysticism-and-sexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-6179 Tracie Sat, 01 Sep 2007 01:29:37 +0000 http://frimmin.com/2007/08/14/mysticism-and-sexuality/#comment-6179 But I’ve never heard a Christian layperson say anything like, “what you are doing is expressing the passionate giving of God pouring his love into the world. You are being God for each other, the soul for each other.”

Only because you haven’t talked to me yet.

I’ve been thinking that for at least a decade now. I just didn’t dare say anything about it. I thought I’d get lynched.

]]> By: Jon http://frimmin.com/2007/08/14/mysticism-and-sexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-6154 Jon Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:18:10 +0000 http://frimmin.com/2007/08/14/mysticism-and-sexuality/#comment-6154 Thanks for such well-though comments, Dano and Yvonne. Dano, I quite agree that for the most part, Christian sexual teaching right on. Far more is right with it than wrong with it... the welcoming of God into joining, the sacredness of the bond, the value of waiting and self-discipline, the value of self-giving. Yet, gays are told that no matter how great their love and spirituality may be, they can never have such a union, that the biology really is the basis of it all. And for the most part, after the romantic words of a wedding ceremony, talk of God in sexuality is usually absent from churches. Yvonne, thanks for your thoughts. I agree, the yin position seems to be a universal in meeting with God... my teacher and his teacher before him also say than in mediation, prayer,preparation, their goal is to be as receptive, yin, and yielding as possible. But in the spiritual warrior context that my teacher embodies, the yin and yang flow together.. In being so yielded, the presence of no-mind takes over, and he can move/be moved in ways that defy explanation, and has never been defeated. Spirtiual yielding --> physical actiion. I'm also thinking of the "muscular spirituality" waves in Protestantism to nourish masculine spirituality, with the YMCA movement in the early 1900s, PromiseKeepers, and the excellent book Wild at Heart... There IS that desire to wed the yieldiing and being penetrated by God with action and strength, but it would be nice to hear someone just come out and SAY it, wouldn't it? Thanks for such well-though comments, Dano and Yvonne.

Dano, I quite agree that for the most part, Christian sexual teaching right on. Far more is right with it than wrong with it… the welcoming of God into joining, the sacredness of the bond, the value of waiting and self-discipline, the value of self-giving. Yet, gays are told that no matter how great their love and spirituality may be, they can never have such a union, that the biology really is the basis of it all. And for the most part, after the romantic words of a wedding ceremony, talk of God in sexuality is usually absent from churches.

Yvonne, thanks for your thoughts. I agree, the yin position seems to be a universal in meeting with God… my teacher and his teacher before him also say than in mediation, prayer,preparation, their goal is to be as receptive, yin, and yielding as possible. But in the spiritual warrior context that my teacher embodies, the yin and yang flow together.. In being so yielded, the presence of no-mind takes over, and he can move/be moved in ways that defy explanation, and has never been defeated. Spirtiual yielding –> physical actiion.

I’m also thinking of the “muscular spirituality” waves in Protestantism to nourish masculine spirituality, with the YMCA movement in the early 1900s, PromiseKeepers, and the excellent book Wild at Heart… There IS that desire to wed the yieldiing and being penetrated by God with action and strength, but it would be nice to hear someone just come out and SAY it, wouldn’t it?

]]> By: Yvonne http://frimmin.com/2007/08/14/mysticism-and-sexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-6138 Yvonne Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:19:12 +0000 http://frimmin.com/2007/08/14/mysticism-and-sexuality/#comment-6138 Here's a great sermon on The Song of Songs which is totally about its literal meaning (whilst acknowledging its metaphorical meaning): http://revthom.blogspot.com/2007/02/sermon-godly-erotic-delivered-2-11-07.html Most religions are framed and organised by men. For men, sex is usually about penetration, whereas receptiveness to the Divine is about being penetrated. The Greek sexual code said that 'real' men should always penetrate and never be penetrated: hence Christian homophobia. Therefore according to most religions you have to give up the desire to penetrate others in order to be penetrated by the Divine; if you're not gay, this implies celibacy. A Christian mystic went to the East to try Goddess religion, but found that was all about being penetrated, too. Also Heathen men who get into seidr (a shamanic practice of receiving communication from the Divine realms) find themselves becoming more receptive/queer. St Theresa of Avila was pierced by an angel's spear... None of this applies to female sexuality (as we can't penetrate except with artificial assistance, and are usually the ones being penetrated, which is maybe why you see more women in churches), but no-one asked women what they thought (well, Jesus did and Odin did, but they were rare in that). I recommend the wonderful book "God's Beauty Parlour, and other queer spaces in and around the Bible" by Stephen Moore, which explains all this very well. Here’s a great sermon on The Song of Songs which is totally about its literal meaning (whilst acknowledging its metaphorical meaning): http://revthom.blogspot.com/2007/02/sermon-godly-erotic-delivered-2-11-07.html

Most religions are framed and organised by men. For men, sex is usually about penetration, whereas receptiveness to the Divine is about being penetrated. The Greek sexual code said that ‘real’ men should always penetrate and never be penetrated: hence Christian homophobia. Therefore according to most religions you have to give up the desire to penetrate others in order to be penetrated by the Divine; if you’re not gay, this implies celibacy. A Christian mystic went to the East to try Goddess religion, but found that was all about being penetrated, too. Also Heathen men who get into seidr (a shamanic practice of receiving communication from the Divine realms) find themselves becoming more receptive/queer. St Theresa of Avila was pierced by an angel’s spear…

None of this applies to female sexuality (as we can’t penetrate except with artificial assistance, and are usually the ones being penetrated, which is maybe why you see more women in churches), but no-one asked women what they thought (well, Jesus did and Odin did, but they were rare in that).

I recommend the wonderful book “God’s Beauty Parlour, and other queer spaces in and around the Bible” by Stephen Moore, which explains all this very well.

]]> By: Dano http://frimmin.com/2007/08/14/mysticism-and-sexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-6128 Dano Wed, 29 Aug 2007 01:31:37 +0000 http://frimmin.com/2007/08/14/mysticism-and-sexuality/#comment-6128 ...Didn't Augustine frame sex and the sacred...while emphasising the 'giveness' of sex...when he reportedly compared the marriage bed to the cross of Christ? I'm not sure what St. Augustine had in mind except perhaps that ....on the cross, Christ gave Himself unconditionally to the world, on the marriage bed, a man and a woman give themselves unconditionally to each other... ...and in that context, it seems, what we might call traditional Christen teaching on human sexuality, i.e. sacred, sacramental, unitive, procreative..., is, well, sort of, U know, right on.? …Didn’t Augustine frame sex and the sacred…while emphasising the ‘giveness’ of sex…when he reportedly compared the marriage bed to the cross of Christ?

I’m not sure what St. Augustine had in mind except perhaps that ….on the cross, Christ gave Himself unconditionally to the world, on the marriage bed, a man and a woman give themselves unconditionally to each other…

…and in that context, it seems, what we might call traditional Christen teaching on human sexuality, i.e. sacred, sacramental, unitive, procreative…, is, well, sort of, U know, right on.?

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